Decoding Ancient Greek Dictionary Entries, with Joel Christensen


CLAUDIA FILOS: This is Claudia Filos. I am
with the Center for Hellenic Studies in Washington, D.C., and today I am talking with Joel Christensen.
He’s a Professor at the University of Texas at San Antonio. Thanks for joining us, Joel. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: No problem, thanks for having
me. CLAUDIA FILOS: So today we’re going to actually
show people how to use part of Perseus. How do you talk to your students about using tools
like Perseus, and other things in the classroom? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: To be honest, it depends
on what the class is and what the students are, who the students are. And it’s a basic
Greek language classroom. I tell them not to use Perseus, unless absolutely necessary.
Because I want them to be able to identify words on their own. Once students get a little
more advanced, Perseus is a good place to go if you’re doing research or if you’re
writing a paper, or if you’re really stumped on a form, and you can’t quite figure it
out. One of the things that’s frustrating about Greek in the beginning is that lots
of words change their roots, and forms, from one tense to another, or one case to another,
and so sometimes you actually can’t look up that word in the dictionary unless you
know what that word is, which is paradoxical if you need to look the word up in the dictionary! CLAUDIA FILOS: Exactly! Right. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Sometimes Perseus can be
really good for that. CLAUDIA FILOS: I recently had a really good
discussion with Anna Krohn, who introduced us to a variety of tools on the Perseus website.
We very briefly talked about reading some of the ancient Greek dictionary entries that
people can access there, but today I was hoping we could look at a little bit further and
you could talk to us about what we’re seeing. So if someone goes to the website and perhaps
they don’t have a lot of experience with the Greek language, ancient Greek language they
might have a sense about what they’re looking at when they’re looking at those dictionary
entries: they might feel a little bit intimidating at first. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: And it is intimidating.
There are lots of symbols, and abbreviations, that aren’t always spelled out. But once
you get the hang of it, it’s actually really simple to use. CLAUDIA FILOS: Great. Well, thanks so much
for your time, and let’s take a look at the website. So if we’re on the Perseus
website you’ll see that this is the main text area, this is where we can access the
Greek text, and over on the right-hand side we have — I just want to point out one thing
— you have a few places where you can choose to also load an English translation. So you
could have them side-by-side, sort of like a Loeb. But there are also some other tools
that are going to appear if we click on a word. For instance, if I click on the first
word in the text, it’s going to open up a dictionary entry for us. This is going to
take a second to load, I think. What are we seeing here, Joel? So I see up here…. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: What you have on the left-hand
column you have the nominative singular version noun, which means its subject form, its most
basic citation form. And all the way to the right you have “wrath”, which is the basic
definition, the simplest definition. CLAUDIA FILOS: Can we talk just for a second
about this form. Some people might hear this called a “dictionary headword” or a “lemma”. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Yup. And what I usually
call it: this is the “citation form”, or its simplest form. So below the lemma, or dictionary
citation form, you have the parentheses. Below that, you have the actual form you looked
up, μῆνιν [mēnin]. Then look underneath the hyperlinks LSJ, Middle Liddell, Autenrieth.
at the grammatical identification: Noun. S-G [sg] means it’s singular, instead of plural.
Feminine means it’s feminine instead of masculine or neuter. And then you have your
case. Greek has five cases, four regular ones, and that gives you the basic information.
It’s also nice underneath because it tells you how many times that it occurs in the entire
corpus that’s available here. And that’s really nice. And you can actually click on
that — here you’ve got 28 — and see all the other occurrences. So you don’t
have to worry about that. CLAUDIA FILOS: That’s what we did this morning
with Anna, so right now let’s focus on what are these dictionary entries. So what we have
there: the LSJ, the Middle Liddell, JOEL CHRISTENSEN: OK. So yeah, there are three
basic dictionaries there. The LSJ is a Liddell and Scott, it is the dictionary put out by
Oxford, and is the most full ancient Greek to English dictionary. The Middle Liddell
is an abbreviated form of that, that is often used in college classrooms. And the Autenrieth
is an English version of a classic German dictionary that is just for Homer, and Homeric
work. So if you want a basic definition, and its use in Homer, you would go to the Autenrieth.
If you want a broader definition, but not a synoptic view of its entire use in all of
Greek language, you go to the Middle Liddell. If you want a boat-load of information, you
go to the LSJ. For research on a word, you start with the LSJ. CLAUDIA FILOS: The “Great Scott”. So let’s
click on that and see if we can bring this up. Great. So now we see a lot of information
here. So what are we looking at now? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: So you’re starting out
again with the word μῆνις [mēnis] again in its lemmatic or dictionary citation form.
And then following are one or two abbrevations. “Dor.” for Doric, and “Aeol.” for
Aeolic. And so this is how you’d spell the word in different Greek dialects. And so the
difference there is that in Doric and Aeolic you often had an α [alpha] instead of an
η [ēta]. CLAUDIA FILOS: OK, so when you say α [alpha]
and η [ēta] we’re talking about this letter here, that looks a little bit like an “n”
with a long tail, and then that’s the alpha that looks a bit like our “a”, right? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right. Now the next symbol
is really important. And the next symbol is an ἡ [ēta] CLAUDIA FILOS: You’re talking about this,
right here. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right there. That, there,
tells you that the word is feminine. OK? And what you’re actually looking at there is
ἡ [hē]. That is called the Greek article. Most Greek nouns take an article when they
appear. And it’s like a “the” or “a” or “an” in English. And that is how a
dictionary, so we don’t have to use different languages, would indicate what the gender
of the noun is. And so that means it’s feminine. CLAUDIA FILOS: Right. So before looking up
here, Joel, we were getting this information that it is F-E-M. But when we’re looking
down here, actually in the dictionary entry, we’re going to get one of these articles. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right. And that’s how
the Greek dictionaries do it. CLAUDIA FILOS: And can you tell us a bit what
would it look like if it were a masculine, or a neuter? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: If you’d had an ὁ [an
omicron] instead of that ἡ [ēta] it’d be masculine. And the marker for the neuter
is the neuter article τό [to] which is a τ [tau] plus an ό [omicron]. CLAUDIA FILOS: Great. Thank you. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: And then next to that you
have the abbreviation “gen.” which stands for genitive. And that gives you the genitive
singular of the noun, which is basically in English as — if the word is “wrath”
— the genetive singular is “of wrath”. And the reason this is important is that in
Greek, as well as in Latin, a lot of times the genitive singular gives you the more stable
version of the noun. So any dictionary citation for a noun will give you the lemma, the dictionary
citation form or the nominative singular, and then will follow up with the genitive
singular. And here it tells you after the words that there are two possible genitive
singulars for μῆνις — one is μήνιος [mēnios] and the later one is μήνιδος
[mēnidos]. And the things you have on either side are other texts where this appears. CLAUDIA FILOS: OK, so you’re talking about
this, and this. I’m just trying to clarify one thing we
just said. So when we were talking about these articles then followed by the genitive, we’re
talking about things that are, let’s say, nouns, right? So verbs might look a little
bit different. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Yes. CLAUDIA FILOS: Great. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: [inaudible] hyperlinks that
would take you right to the passage. So in that, “Pl.” stands for Plato, “R.”
stands for “Republic” and 390e is the strophe in this case, which is the citation
for the text. CLAUDIA FILOS: OK. So that’s a little confusing.
That’s not necessarily intuitive. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right, not at all. But what’s
good here is that, you know, this is the basic form of citation you find in any classical
text, and the nice thing is, you can click on that, and it will take you to it. I don’t
know if Perseus has an abbreviation table. It looks like up in the corner it has something
that says “view abbreviations”: I don’t know if that will do any good. * CLAUDIA FILOS: Maybe, yeah. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: But most of the time you’ll
be able to follow these links. And some of them, as in following μήνιδος [mēnidos]
there, there aren’t links there, and some of them are mysteries even to me. So the first
one I know is Iliad, so I’m not quite sure who the next one is. “Them.”, CLAUDIA FILOS: So that’s not a full link,
because some texts, actually, are not available on Perseus right now. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right. So while you’re
learning this, don’t worry too much about those. But if you can get your hands on a
hard copy of LSJ, all the abbreviations are laid out in the front, and I’m pretty sure
you can Google search for LSJ abbreviations, you can find them and find the list that way. CLAUDIA FILOS: Actually users can access a
list of abbreviations for authors and works right on the Perseus website.* JOEL CHRISTENSEN: After that you get what’s
called a full em-dash [“:—”] and then you get the word “wrath” in italics, CLAUDIA FILOS: Yes, right here. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: And it gives its earliest
attestation, so from Homer, right, and “frequently of the wrath of the gods”. CLAUDIA FILOS: Right there. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: And CHS community member
and master, Leonard Muellner, has a book all about μῆνις [mēnis]. CLAUDIA FILOS: Exactly…. all about the anger
of Achilles, right? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Yeah. And finally, following,
which you’ll often get, are some other more idiomatic uses of the word. So “μῆνιν
ἔχειν ἀπὸ θεοῦ” [mēnin ekhein apo theou] and it tells you this is
where it’s used, a common way to use it. And you’ll also find here in this space
as we move on a bit in the dictionary definitions, if there are special uses or special grammatical
functions of a noun. So if it often, for a word like “dear” or “worthy” often
take whatever, like “worthy of”, or “dear to”, so you’ll often find specific uses
like that. CLAUDIA FILOS: Can you explain this? I’m
looking at this, that looks like the letter “μ.” [“ M” ], that we’re seeing
with the μῆνις [mēnis], as a μ [mu], and then a period. What’s going on there? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: There the author, or the
editors, decided not to spend any more time printing “μῆνις [mēnis]”! CLAUDIA FILOS: OK! JOEL CHRISTENSEN: And you can see that repeated
in the next line, after “worshipped as heroes,” “τοῖσι μ. [toisi mu] and then moving
on of course in the bottom line as well, yeah, right there. So the old-school lexicography
is to build up a different definition by providing a full semantic sphere of a noun or a verb,
so by looking at every major occurrence, and that’s really what’s going on here, tracing
various instances. CLAUDIA FILOS: Great. And so, that’s really
important, because in terms of the way that we tend to approach looking at this literature
and trying to understand these words, that’s really the way to build up your understanding
of the word, right? By looking at many, many examples. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: OK, yes, because words don’t
exist in the abstract. They exist in context and use. And this is really what’s going
on here: you’re getting hyperlinked outline of the word use in its earlier appearances.,
and it’s really useful. To start out, though, it’s probably most useful just to look at
the beginning parts of the word. And, you know, for nouns it’s — I’m going to
call it transparent — but maybe it might be useful to go back and look at a verb — CLAUDIA FILOS: Great, yes. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: — and see how much more
complicated that is. CLAUDIA FILOS: Shall we look at ἄειδε
[aeide] ? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Sure! That one might be…
yes, let’s start there. CLAUDIA FILOS: Do you want me to look at a
different one? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Let’s not gain the system.
Let’s start there. CLAUDIA FILOS: OK. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: So … CLAUDIA FILOS: So this is a lot longer, right?
We’re seeing a lot. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right. We’re seeing a
lot more here. So let’s start from the beginning again. So it will go to the lemmatic form,
the dictionary citation form, again, with ἀείδω [aeidō] and that is the citation,
the simplest form of anything, which is the first person singular present of the verb.
And what’s following is defining that this is not a common form. So you have “Ion”,
period, and “poet”, period. Which is cited as an Ionic form, it’s another Greek dialect,
and poetic, and it’s used by “H, o, m, period”, which is Homer, and “P, i, period”
which is Pindar. And sometimes in tragedy and comedy, and then it says “even in trimeter”! CLAUDIA FILOS: OK. Look at all that information,
that’s super-compressed. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right. And then it continues
to give you more information: it also occurs in Ionic Prose. And then following, you get
an additional bit of information: you get the contracted form, which is in the Anacreonta
as it tells you. I’m basically looking at the contracted form: it’s just the vowels
have been smashed together. Instead of ἀείδω [aeidō] you get ᾁδω [adō] CLAUDIA FILOS: Great. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: OK? And so you see it’s
in those other forms. And then you start to get some slightly different forms of verbs.
If you start to learn Greek, you’ll learn the Greek principal parts: the Greek verbs
have six principal parts. Which is sort of like what we said earlier, with the genitive
and the noun, which is that those six principal parts, the six different forms, represent
all the mutations or transformations a verb can go through. So in a full word you’ll
get the future form, an aorist form, which is one past tense, a second past tense called
the perfect, you’ll get passive stems for the perfect and aorist, and … the present
form. So what happens following the big letter “A” is the basic form of the verb, right?
So to the right of the big letter “A” you have ἤειδον [ēeidon] and it says,
if you look before the “A” you have the abbreviation “Impf.” CLAUDIA FILOS: Yeah: what does that mean? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: That means “imperfect”.
A type of past tense. And after that you find out that there are two different types of
imperfect forms in Homer: ἄειδον [aeidon] which is in the Odyssey, and ἤειδον
[ēeidon] which is in the Odyssey, and ἄειδον [aeidon] which is in the Iliad. And there’s
a tragic and Attic form ᾖδον [ēdon] CLAUDIA FILOS: OK. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: So you’ve just been given
three different potential variations for the imperfect, for this tense. Then you have — so
you get after that a semi-colon — you have the abbreviation “f, u, t” which gives
you the future form, ἀείσομαι [aeisomai], then some other variations, till you get all
the way, for basically — where’s the next one? these are future form variations — basically
until you get to the abbreviation “a, o, r, period”, in the fourth and fifth line
down. CLAUDIA FILOS: Here it is, yes. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: ἤεισα [ēeisa], and
then, because this is an early Greek verb, you get a range of variations for aorist,
right? CLAUDIA FILOS: OK. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Scan down until you get
to some passive forms. OK? So all this is very typical for Greek verbal morphology,
the forms of verbs. CLAUDIA FILOS: And so for someone who’s,
let’s say, looking to explore and learn more about a Greek word — you may be interested
in a particular form, or you you’re finding a form and you’re not sure form you’re
looking for — the Perseus tools are going to help you, right? It can parse for you. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: If you find a varied form,
or a strange form, it’s going to link you back to the main dictionary citation. For
example, this is a beautiful variation, all the forms you find in early Greek dialects
and poetry, right? And there are many different ways you can do the future, or the aorist,
for this era. So most people when they’re looking now aren’t going to want to move
through all that morphological information. CLAUDIA FILOS: Exactly. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Until you get to that dictionary,
you start to get the definitions down in this part —where are we? Fifth, sixth line from
the bottom. CLAUDIA FILOS: Yeah. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: You’re starting to get
various definitions. So after you get down to Roman numerals, you start to get some real
important information. There’s something I just want to talk about for a minute. So
under this Roman numeral II, there’s a little asterisk [*], and then a number 1. CLAUDIA FILOS: Right: we’re right here. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: So starting with that, that
“c, dot, a, c, c, rei” [c. acc. rei] is really important, because that means that
it goes with an accusative of the thing, right? I’ll give you an example, it is of course
μῆνιν ἄειδε [mēnin aeide] “sing the rage”. The reason this is a bit difficult,
is in English “sing” is not what we call a directly transitive verb. It doesn’t tend
to take a direct object of things like that. You sing about rage, you don’t sing an object,
generally. So right here this is telling you that’s normal in Greek and that it just
takes a regular accusative direct object. CLAUDIA FILOS: And just to clarify: that “c.”
is what’s telling you “with” and the “acc.” is telling you what case that it’s
with. The accusative case in this case. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right. And so this is Latin,
which is really useful of course for people who want to learn Greek! But we have to remember
that this comes from a long tradition of people knowing Latin and Greek, and Latin really
being used as a lingua franca of Europe, so that people were speaking German, translated
into English, we have to use the same reference tools. CLAUDIA FILOS: So Joel, can I ask: I’m seeing
something similar down here. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: OK. Where you’re pointing,
OK. So here, you could also use it with the genitive! But if you look at the second one,
you sing a song of something. And so there are variations, especially in Greek poetry,
in the way that nouns and verbs relate. So a good dictionary gives you all that information.
And if you look down and move down to the number 2. It says, you know, you can sing
praises of people, or praise people. Sometimes they try to get a little nuance to the verb,
like English verbs, that let’s say would lubricate the translation a little bit, and
instead of “sing the hero” we say “praise the hero” or “celebrate the hero”…. CLAUDIA FILOS: Right, right. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: … which is interesting.
Then, of course, the verb can be used in different ways depending on the voice: whether it’s
active, passive, or Greek has a thing called the middle, which is somewhere in between.
So if we look at number …. 2 here is a passive option. And the heroes are celebrated, or
she is celebrated as the nurse of heroes. There’s the example given there. CLAUDIA FILOS: And before, you mentioned “middle”.
What would be the abbreviation for middle? Could you tell us about that? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: It’s Med. [medio], because
it’s Latin. CLAUDIA FILOS: Great, and so that’s up here,
right? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right. And so this is important
— just one more note to make — [inaudible] for you. In Greek, the middle and the passive
forms are almost always the same, except for the future and aorist tenses. CLAUDIA FILOS: OK. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: So if you look at that,
where you were pointing right there, where it says “M,e,d, dot, a, o, r ”[Med. aor]
the important thing is…. CLAUDIA FILOS: Up here. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: … that is the middle aorist
form. As opposed to the aorist passive form. And I’m trying to scan through that: do
we have any …? So: … [both speak together] … sometimes you just have to start with
these entries, and piecing them together, and using them. And what’s really nice about
this individual format, as opposed to a print one, is that if you don’t know what one
of these things mean, and there’s a hyperlink, you can just click on it, and start to do
experimentation. CLAUDIA FILOS: Like for instance, this “h.
Hom”, this is a Homeric Hymn, right, you just click on it, and: beautiful, we’ll
see, Hymn to Aphrodite. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right to where you found
it, which is really neat. I can tell you, before this was possible, you know, when we
were undergrads, you had to get over your fear and embarassment and ignorance, and go
and ask someone who knew! And one of my favorite experiences from undergrad is being slightly
ahead of that experience, when I was a senior, and having a good friend come up to me and
showing me a word, and saying “I’ve been thinking all day, and can’t figure out what
it is.” And I was like, “Oh, that’s easy: that’s from ἔρχομαι [erkhomai],
the verb to come or go, which has a fabulously insane form: it goes ἔρχομαι, ελεύσομαι,
ἤλυθον, [erkhomai, eleusomai, ēluthon] so Greek demands some study and memorization
at the beginning. But over time it loses some of its mystery. And the tools on Perseus are
really great to help with that. CLAUDIA FILOS: Exactly. And so even these
dictionary entries that at first may seem sort of overwhelming and give us a lot of
information, a lot of this information, if you’re new and you’re just looking for
the basic definition, you wouldn’t necessarily even need to look at it. You could come down
and scan, and look for the definitions, and you could look and see what authors it’s
appearing in. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: It might be easier, though
— let’s just show them and then contrast the other two dictionary entries for word.
So from the Middle Liddell, and the Autenrieth. CLAUDIA FILOS: Yeah, look at that. That’s
much less intimidating, right? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Middle Liddell, if you look
at it, just gives the basic information to translate it, right, which is nice. And it
also gives you some combinations, so if you look down at number 1 and 2, it says it sometimes
goes to the [inaudible] to sing about someone; in the passive it’s to be sung, the song
is sung; and then again, see under a it’s “c, dot, a, c, c, dot, person” so to sing,
to praise, someone. CLAUDIA FILOS: So you’re right here, right? JOEL CHRISTENSEN: And to show again, this
is important in early Greek, if we go to the Autenreith — oh, wait, before we go, there’s
another dictionary entry that’s been added, and that’s the Slater, which is a dictionary
that’s just for Pindar. It’s a beautiful dictionary. But you see a lot of information,
that’s typically tied to Pindaric usage, and what people have said about Pindaric usage. CLAUDIA FILOS: Right. That’s beautiful.
That’s a beautiful thing to do, right, because sometimes the way that a word use of a particular
author can be very specific, and I know, for instance, you’re very interested in Homer,
right? Like I am. And we sometimes find that. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Right, and it is, and especially
for Pindar, if you’re interested in that poet, it used to be that you couldn’t find
this dictionary because it was out of print, and was so rare I almost stole it for my graduate
school, but I held back from that! CLAUDIA FILOS: And the “Great Scott” is
so big, and heavy, and expensive, right? I asked to get that for my tenth anniversary.
I hardly ever need it now! JOEL CHRISTENSEN: I know, exactly, and when
I was in college, I asked for it as a Christmas present, and my father looked at me and thought
I was insane! CLAUDIA FILOS: All right, so let’s take
a look at the Homeric dictionary, because we love Homer. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: All right, so look, here,
there’s some nice and simple things. First of all, let’s start from the left and move
over. It tells you that the word is spelled differently, right? What we have there between
the alpha [ἀ] and the epsilon [ε] is the digamma [ϝ] which explains some of the chronological,
morphological difficulty of the verb, because Greek lost the digamma when it developed. CLAUDIA FILOS: So you’re talking, Joel,
you’re talking about this little thing that might look to some people like an “F”. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: They’re saying that at
one point it was ἀϝείδω [aWeidō] instead of ἀείδω [aeidō]. The reason this is
important is that it tells us “Hey: this is why that alpha didn’t disappear, didn’t
contract with the vowels that came after it. It was there.” And then you have your really
simple forms: you have the future, “f, u, t” is the symbol for the future.
And then the aorist. Notice this “indicative”, instead of the passive or the middle.
And then because it’s irregular, I guess, it’s giving you the imperative form, which
is the command form in Greek, and the aorist imperative is the most common imperative in
Homer. And then it gives you the infinitive, which
is basically how you’d say “to sing”. Now you’re not going to get the same exact
options for every Greek verb, because Greek verbs have different semantic fields, and
different morphological traditions. So what the dictionaries do, they give you all the
information that makes this verb different from others. CLAUDIA FILOS: Got it. Because when before
you were talking about those six principal parts, those are sort of, in a perfect world,
if every verb were completely regular, those are the only forms you would need to know.
Every possible form, right, but that’s just not the way it works. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: It’s not the way it works,
and here ἀείδω [aeidō] is basically deficient. They’re not going to define all
six principal parts. But for a basic word like παύω [pauō] if you’re learning
Greek, your six principal parts, παύω, παύσω, ἔπαυσα, πέπαυκα,
πέπαυμαι, επαύθην [pauō, pausō, epausa, pepauka, pepaumai, epauthēn] but
that doesn’t work for every verb. So, moving on to this, we might get different translations,
and we also get elaborations, right, so you can say “to sing songs of heroes”, and
then you can sing themes, so you sing the rage, or there’s a great example from the
Odyssey: you sing the homecoming of the Achaeans, which means that this is a pirate[?] story
that would be sung. And you also get some examples where things combine with adjectives
where μάλ᾽ ἀεῖσαι, [mal’aeisai]. And very nice, simple, as much information
as you need. And if you want to do more study you can go back to your “Great Scott”. CLAUDIA FILOS: Yeah. That’s great. Well,
Joel, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time you’ve taken to show us the intricacies
a reading needs, and also to show us that they can give us all that beautiful information,
but also that we can choose to just get the information we need, and not be overwhelmed,
and that we can see what these abbreviations are that are used over and over again. And
in our community we’re going to try and post the list of abbreviations from the “Great
Scott” that may be a big help to people. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: Well, I’m sure the community
over time will generate its own list, if it’s not available, but it should be. CLAUDIA FILOS: True, true, great. Well, thank
you so much again, and we hope to talk to you again soon. JOEL CHRISTENSEN: OK. Have a great day! CLAUDIA FILOS: Thanks.

Daniel Ostrander

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